INTRO: Liz Conway now living in Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany, used to be one of the northernmost dulcimer players in England, based in the Northumbrian Pennines at Allendale. As mountain dulcimer lead for Nonsuch Dulcimer Club she launched the annual Allendale Spring Fling in 2010 and taught MD at folk festivals and at the Sage Music Centre in Gateshead. Liz played live and recorded with a number of line-ups including The Lucky Bags, Midsummer Blue, and with her partner Terry Conway. We have much to talk about!
STEVE: The mountain dulcimer was, and still is, a fairly rare instrument in the North of England. How did you first get interested in playing it?
LIZ: Like many others, I saw John Pearse on "Music Room" on ITV in the early '70s. He showed how to make a version of a dulcimer (a stick dulcimer?). On a visit to a friend in Wales I tried the one her boyfriend had made for her. I was playing guitar, not very well at the time and thought, "I think I could get away with this" and so I looked for one when I got home. I found a John Pearse triangular one in Newcastle and it went on from there. On my travels I met Phil Ranson, a wonderful player, who said, "you don't want to play that, get Stefan Sobell to make you a proper one". The rest is history.
STEVE: I seem to recall (though my memory might be playing tricks!) taking my first steps in a folk-rock band at a charity (Children in Need) gig where the Lucky Bags were one of the more established and accomplished bands. Tell me about the times you had with the Lucky Bags….
LIZ: Prior to Lucky Bags, I had played in a ceilidh band called "Def Whippet"; we did weddings, a series of ceilidhs in the Borough Hall in Hartlepool and also a memorable event organised by Durham University. We were on first, followed by a sword swallower and other strange acts! Then I also played as one third of the local folk club's house band, "Granny's Flat". The name was chosen because that was where we rehearsed, my grandmother having by that time moved into a care home
I met Julie-Ann Kay, as she then was, at a memorial concert for Phil Ranson, who sadly died of cancer in the early '90s. What a loss. He was doing such interesting things on the dulcimer, slide dulcimer, for example. I first heard him play "Random" by James Hill, and thought that if he could play it, I should try. I think my effort is still up on Youtube somewhere. I also learned "The Battle of the Somme" from him, also up on Youtube. Julie-Ann was playing in a band called "Broken Drum" (they were all Pratchett fans) and the two of us decided to see if playing together would work. It did. When we were playing at a concert in Murton, we met up with Zena Tubmen who went to school with Julie-Ann. Zena wanted to form a band, so the three of us would meet at Julie-Ann's in Heaton. I happened to meet up with Judy Dinning at a Northumbrian night in Allendale, and casually mentioned the band. Judy was very interested, and came along with me to a rehearsal. I remember the expression on her face when she met the other two, "what have I let myself in for here?" But when they started singing harmonies together the hair went up on the back of my neck.
In time we made a couple of CDs, and got an agent. But the relationship with the agent didn't work out, so everybody lost out. Judy joined Jez Lowe and the Bad Pennies, whose diary was much fuller than ours. I learned a lot from being in the band, however, and we did two visits to Hartlepool's twin town, Hückelhoven, and several visits to the Netherlands, which were amazing, and we shifted a huge number of CDs at every performance! We also added Emma Welton, a superb fiddler, to the lineup, in time for the first visit to Holland. We last played at a farm festival near the border with Germany, in 2002, without Julie-Ann that time, as she was just about to become a mother.
Sadly, Judy developed cancer, and died about 5 months after Terry. 2013 was a terrible year for folk music, Graham Miles, Sarah Morgan and Louisa Killen also died that year.
But it is nice to know that we still have fans who have fond memories of our performances, which were often highly entertaining!
STEVE: I first saw Judy at South Shields folk club – what a lovely voice and such a sad loss. The conversation has to come around to Terry. I am sure you would like to say a few words about gigging with Terry?
LIZ: It's quite difficult to say just a few words about gigging with Terry, since we were together for about 19 years, and I was friends with him for 19 more before that. We finally got together in 1994, but didn't guest in folk clubs until about 1997, having played the odd "turn" as a duo in clubs before that.
Terry was quite happy to busk in Hexham, but was an unwilling folk club guest, saying, "I'm only happy when the last note has died away". Being a very conscientious person he was afraid his paid performances wouldn't be good enough, something I tried to dissuade him from thinking, to no avail.
The first two songs I remember our playing as a duet were "Lake of Shilin" and "Rocks of Bawn". After that we started looking at new interpretations of Terry's songs.
At one time the local primary school wanted to use "Eastern Allen Runs" as their school song and Terry commented "I've never made any money from my songs", which set me off looking for a way to protect his songs, the obvious way being to make a CD. That was how "Premier" came to be made. I had no thought of how it would be received, as I was concentrating on its production and presentation - artwork, sleeve notes, etc.,so its favourable response was quite a surprise. There were 6 of Terry's songs, 5 traditional, one by me, and the remainder were joint efforts.
Seven years later, in true folk song tradition, we made "Of Riots and Rabbits". In both these efforts I saw myself as accompanist, arranger and general producer, getting a CD available to buy. It included 7 of Terry's songs. But listening to Terry's solo version of "I do not want to lose you" (Harry Wharton) I was astonished by how different the song sounded from when we played it as a duet.
We wrote 6 songs together, 4 recorded on Premier, "The Hexham Riot" on "Of Riots and Rabbits" and "Winter Song" on my CD, originally recorded on a friend's phone, and we added accompaniment posthumously for the CD. In our arrangements, I would come up with hook lines and fill-ins, and in the case of long ballads, counter melodies - a tune can get a bit repetitive after 16 verses!
I hope I managed to tread the fine line that suited everyone - not too many bookings because Terry found it all an ordeal (also in the case of recording) but I tried to encourage him to take bookings to be seen and heard by the public so that such a massive talent didn't disappear without trace.
If this is a bit long, don't hesitate to edit where appropriate!
STEVE: No, it’s all fascinating stuff Liz, so I’ll not be cutting anything out.
I mentioned your involvement in Nonsuch. How did the Spring Fling start?
LIZ: I think Spring Fling started in 2010. It was the winter when we had deep snow for at least 2 months. It had previously previously been a "Winter Warmer" that Jenny Coxon organised in York, at Ken and Sandie's B and B. I was one of the early MD tutors for it, and then did the same thing for Spring Fling to get it off the ground.
STEVE: I’ve seen you with a number of Sobell dulcimers on stage. Presumably these 6-stringed instruments are your favourites. How/when did you begin playing on a Sobell – was it your first instrument? I know you prefer GDG tuning, though play in a few other too. Why GDG – I know you like the versatility of the chords for accompaniment?
LIZ: My first dulcimer was a John Pearse triangular dulcimer, found after quite a search, in Newcastle. No Amazon or Ebay then! I played that, self taught for a while, tuning DAD, having no idea whether that was right or not. When playing in a folk club, I met Phil Ranson, who advised me to see Stefan Sobell. I visited him at his home in Hexhamshire, and commissioned my first proper dulcimer from him, and gained a few pointers from his wife Liz, an excellent player. This dulcimer is dated December 1975 and I still play it. Not bad for £35!
My husband at the time was a banjo player, and I commissioned a second MD to be tuned to GDG, not knowing about the DGD tuning till much later! But my ignorance means I have a unique instrument with a very bright tone. My ex decided he wanted a dulcimer too, so we bought a third one which I think someone had commissioned and then not collected from Stefan.
I play Sobells because I like the tone and because they are quite loud, which is handy when playing in a group. Also handy for a player who only hears in mono!
I can't remember when I started playing in DGD, but I find it a much more flexible tuning than DAD. You can do a three chord trick in several different keys, something I find very useful in a session with instruments that don't have to retune to change keys.
LIZ: Like many others, I saw John Pearse on "Music Room" on ITV in the early '70s. He showed how to make a version of a dulcimer (a stick dulcimer?). On a visit to a friend in Wales I tried the one her boyfriend had made for her. I was playing guitar, not very well at the time and thought, "I think I could get away with this" and so I looked for one when I got home. I found a John Pearse triangular one in Newcastle and it went on from there. On my travels I met Phil Ranson, a wonderful player, who said, "you don't want to play that, get Stefan Sobell to make you a proper one". The rest is history.
STEVE: I seem to recall (though my memory might be playing tricks!) taking my first steps in a folk-rock band at a charity (Children in Need) gig where the Lucky Bags were one of the more established and accomplished bands. Tell me about the times you had with the Lucky Bags….
LIZ: Prior to Lucky Bags, I had played in a ceilidh band called "Def Whippet"; we did weddings, a series of ceilidhs in the Borough Hall in Hartlepool and also a memorable event organised by Durham University. We were on first, followed by a sword swallower and other strange acts! Then I also played as one third of the local folk club's house band, "Granny's Flat". The name was chosen because that was where we rehearsed, my grandmother having by that time moved into a care home
I met Julie-Ann Kay, as she then was, at a memorial concert for Phil Ranson, who sadly died of cancer in the early '90s. What a loss. He was doing such interesting things on the dulcimer, slide dulcimer, for example. I first heard him play "Random" by James Hill, and thought that if he could play it, I should try. I think my effort is still up on Youtube somewhere. I also learned "The Battle of the Somme" from him, also up on Youtube. Julie-Ann was playing in a band called "Broken Drum" (they were all Pratchett fans) and the two of us decided to see if playing together would work. It did. When we were playing at a concert in Murton, we met up with Zena Tubmen who went to school with Julie-Ann. Zena wanted to form a band, so the three of us would meet at Julie-Ann's in Heaton. I happened to meet up with Judy Dinning at a Northumbrian night in Allendale, and casually mentioned the band. Judy was very interested, and came along with me to a rehearsal. I remember the expression on her face when she met the other two, "what have I let myself in for here?" But when they started singing harmonies together the hair went up on the back of my neck.
In time we made a couple of CDs, and got an agent. But the relationship with the agent didn't work out, so everybody lost out. Judy joined Jez Lowe and the Bad Pennies, whose diary was much fuller than ours. I learned a lot from being in the band, however, and we did two visits to Hartlepool's twin town, Hückelhoven, and several visits to the Netherlands, which were amazing, and we shifted a huge number of CDs at every performance! We also added Emma Welton, a superb fiddler, to the lineup, in time for the first visit to Holland. We last played at a farm festival near the border with Germany, in 2002, without Julie-Ann that time, as she was just about to become a mother.
Sadly, Judy developed cancer, and died about 5 months after Terry. 2013 was a terrible year for folk music, Graham Miles, Sarah Morgan and Louisa Killen also died that year.
But it is nice to know that we still have fans who have fond memories of our performances, which were often highly entertaining!
STEVE: I first saw Judy at South Shields folk club – what a lovely voice and such a sad loss. The conversation has to come around to Terry. I am sure you would like to say a few words about gigging with Terry?
LIZ: It's quite difficult to say just a few words about gigging with Terry, since we were together for about 19 years, and I was friends with him for 19 more before that. We finally got together in 1994, but didn't guest in folk clubs until about 1997, having played the odd "turn" as a duo in clubs before that.
Terry was quite happy to busk in Hexham, but was an unwilling folk club guest, saying, "I'm only happy when the last note has died away". Being a very conscientious person he was afraid his paid performances wouldn't be good enough, something I tried to dissuade him from thinking, to no avail.
The first two songs I remember our playing as a duet were "Lake of Shilin" and "Rocks of Bawn". After that we started looking at new interpretations of Terry's songs.
At one time the local primary school wanted to use "Eastern Allen Runs" as their school song and Terry commented "I've never made any money from my songs", which set me off looking for a way to protect his songs, the obvious way being to make a CD. That was how "Premier" came to be made. I had no thought of how it would be received, as I was concentrating on its production and presentation - artwork, sleeve notes, etc.,so its favourable response was quite a surprise. There were 6 of Terry's songs, 5 traditional, one by me, and the remainder were joint efforts.
Seven years later, in true folk song tradition, we made "Of Riots and Rabbits". In both these efforts I saw myself as accompanist, arranger and general producer, getting a CD available to buy. It included 7 of Terry's songs. But listening to Terry's solo version of "I do not want to lose you" (Harry Wharton) I was astonished by how different the song sounded from when we played it as a duet.
We wrote 6 songs together, 4 recorded on Premier, "The Hexham Riot" on "Of Riots and Rabbits" and "Winter Song" on my CD, originally recorded on a friend's phone, and we added accompaniment posthumously for the CD. In our arrangements, I would come up with hook lines and fill-ins, and in the case of long ballads, counter melodies - a tune can get a bit repetitive after 16 verses!
I hope I managed to tread the fine line that suited everyone - not too many bookings because Terry found it all an ordeal (also in the case of recording) but I tried to encourage him to take bookings to be seen and heard by the public so that such a massive talent didn't disappear without trace.
If this is a bit long, don't hesitate to edit where appropriate!
STEVE: No, it’s all fascinating stuff Liz, so I’ll not be cutting anything out.
I mentioned your involvement in Nonsuch. How did the Spring Fling start?
LIZ: I think Spring Fling started in 2010. It was the winter when we had deep snow for at least 2 months. It had previously previously been a "Winter Warmer" that Jenny Coxon organised in York, at Ken and Sandie's B and B. I was one of the early MD tutors for it, and then did the same thing for Spring Fling to get it off the ground.
LIZ: My first dulcimer was a John Pearse triangular dulcimer, found after quite a search, in Newcastle. No Amazon or Ebay then! I played that, self taught for a while, tuning DAD, having no idea whether that was right or not. When playing in a folk club, I met Phil Ranson, who advised me to see Stefan Sobell. I visited him at his home in Hexhamshire, and commissioned my first proper dulcimer from him, and gained a few pointers from his wife Liz, an excellent player. This dulcimer is dated December 1975 and I still play it. Not bad for £35!
My husband at the time was a banjo player, and I commissioned a second MD to be tuned to GDG, not knowing about the DGD tuning till much later! But my ignorance means I have a unique instrument with a very bright tone. My ex decided he wanted a dulcimer too, so we bought a third one which I think someone had commissioned and then not collected from Stefan.
I play Sobells because I like the tone and because they are quite loud, which is handy when playing in a group. Also handy for a player who only hears in mono!
I can't remember when I started playing in DGD, but I find it a much more flexible tuning than DAD. You can do a three chord trick in several different keys, something I find very useful in a session with instruments that don't have to retune to change keys.
I used chords when accompanying Terry and when we formed "Midsummer Blue", now sadly at an end with the loss of Caroline last year. But especially when playing with Hexham Village Band, when there are 2 or 3 tunes in a set, sometimes all in different keys. The set could start with a tune in D, then change to G, and then crank it up a notch to A! All good practice.
STEVE: I saw you playing with Midsummer Blue at a basement venue in Hexham and also at the Spring Fling in 2019. Tell me a bit more about that line-up....
LIZ: Midsummer Blue were named after Terry's song, which was recorded on "Of Riots & Rabbits". John and Caroline Bushby invited me to play with them after Terry died. It was a steep climb to learn some of their repertoire, which was much larger than mine, and it was quite a challenge for a musical ignoramus like me to play with a couple who were both classically trained. I have been very fortunate, having so many opportunities to play with proper musicians, but I seem to have got away with it so far. This may sound overly modest, but I agree with whoever said "the more you know, the more you realise how much you don't know". Caroline was our metronome, she would tell off both John and I for speeding up. She was also the perfectionist, keeping us to a high standard of playing - very good for a slapdash personality like mine! We included some of Terry's songs in the repertoire too, that was one of our raisons d'etre, I guess.
We played a few bookings, including a very nice festival in the Lake District and a concert in the Lit & Phil* to help raise money to restore the huge portrait of John Buddle.
STEVE: And that returns us neatly to the Lit and Phil, where I am currently running beginners workshops using some of the training instruments you kindly passed onto me when you moved over to Germany. I have also taken on the baton of organising the Spring Fling (with help from other Nonsuchers) now based on Newcastle quayside. Thanks for this fascinating insight into your playing Liz and for the help you have given me.
*The Literary and Philosophical Society of Newcastle upon Tyne is the largest independent library outside of London.